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Incest In Fiction

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By EelKat Wendy C Allen

I'm going to place a warning on this page, that it is of a triggering and mature nature and the content of this page may not be suitable for readers under the age of 18, so continue reading at your own risk. Thank you.

"Okay, first: I don't want to start a discussion if it's wrong, right, disgusting or whatever. I have a writing/plot related question. Incest in fiction: Is it a decent idea or just a big no-no? I've read quite a bit, and I have seen very few incest. I know you use incest a lot in your fiction. I can't seem to find many other authors that do.

The thing is when people write about incest (not rape/child abuse, I'm speaking of consent here) the trigger for it seems mostly to be proximity - or that's what I came across. I have to admit that just doesn't work for me as an excuse/explanation in the most cases.

I was wondering about incest in fiction, especially in your fiction. I know you have a hard time publishing much of your work because of the incest content. Incest is messed up and illegal in every country in world. 

The other issue of it being "with consent". There are books on the psychology of it and most turn into abusers, pedophiles or sexual deviants as a result of it, because children can't give consent even if they do give consent.

It's probably to do with the brains natural filters being crosswired. We know not to eat dead bodies despite there being protein there as it's inbuilt - but some people have disabilities that take them beyond that. But these same good guy main characters of yours they do that too.

Similarly with incest, which is why it is illegal in every country in the world.

I'm writing a story with incest in it but I am not certain how to handle it. In the case of those who enter into consensual sexual relations knowing all along they were siblings and having been raised together, proximity is clearly a necessary but not sufficient condition. (Two people can hardly fall in love if they never see each other, but if that was all it took it would be far more common than it is.)

I guess my question is how do you write these guys are being good guys when they are so messed up?

I can't write it like you do father/son adult/child, see power unbalance bothers me a lot. That's why I only can write incest when it's about siblings - best roughly the same age as well, but than it seems too familiar, too consensual.

See, I've got conflicts here because you know that incest is generally grounds for breaking up families, right? You ever wonder why that might be? Because it's child abuse. I am certain you and your creepy little fetish community have boatloads of justification for why it's okay, but it's not, it is child abuse and I want to write it that way. Except for I worry about causing readers the horrible flashbacks you'd trigger in your readers when writing incest. Also for a lot of survivors, having folks "lie" about what they went through, make it sound consecual when it's not makes it even worse.

See I didn't want to come off as Oh yes. Let's not write about slavery, for concern about the feelings of the slaves who were horrifically abused and degraded. Let's not think about the terrifying experiences that the Holocaust survivors experienced. We must be careful with their sensibilities. And, good lord, never, ever use a war in a story to explore man's emotions as he brutally kills other humans. How callous to even think about writing out a vicious murder, or mapping out the thought process of a rapist. All writing should be concerned with duckies and bunnies.

I don't want to offend people but I don't want to over simplify and seem like I am making fun of others pain either.

It's the one reason I don't make 'Nam jokes around VFW buildings, out of respect for basic human dignity and the horrors of rape and abuse. See my conflict here?

So, when I don't want to use the 'proximity leads to incest' excuse/plot, what else can I use? What else is there except maybe: we didn't know, because we were separated at birth? My MC loves her brother, and I can't convince her otherwise. So trash her or is it possible to use her without being booted?

All help and thoughts are welcome."

I am not sure how I could be of help in your plot. Proximity does lead to incest in real life, so not using it in fiction will cause your readers to feel the story is less believable. You seem to be confused as to what I write and the motivation behind it. I do not write to entertain readers. Heck, I've never written for a reader ever.

To hell with what readers think of what I write. A lot of readers get turned off by what I write and I get mountain mudslides of hate emails as a result of The Twighlight Manor Series. And I absolutely don't care if you hate it or not, though if you find what I write entertaining, than heck, I will think you are a twisted creep. Fact remains I suffer from PTSD and I can not sleep at night unless I completely empty my mind first, and what I write down before I go to bed each night, is what ends up being published under the title of "The Twighlight Manor Series". I don't preplot this thing ad sit around wondering if it's right or wrong or going to offend anybody.

Fact is, life is hell and you do what you have to do to make it from one day to the next and for me, that means writing my brain into oblivion each night so I can sleep without nightmares. But more on that later.

First, let's touch on where you said:

"Similarly with incest, which is why it is illegal in every country in the world."

Actually, that's not true, there are only about a dozen countries where it is illegal, and it's only been illegal in the USA since the 1940s, the same time the age of consent was changed from 10 to 18. Most of Western Europe did not follow suite until as late as the 1970s. Most Eastern Europe, Asia, Mediterranean, Oceanic, and African countries still practice (and in some cases encourage) incest. Some countries in Mediterranean, Oceanic, and Africa expressly FORBID a man from marrying a woman he is NOT related to. In total fewer than 7% of the countries in the world, say that incest is illegal.

In Medieval Europe, Renaissance Europe, and Victorian Europe and Victorian America, it was not only common practice, it was encouraged: Women were property, marriage was rape, age of consent was 10, incest was common practice, religious leaders got first choice of daughters, fathers got second choice, brothers got third choice, the man with the highest bid got to buy her if no priest or man in the family wanted her, and sex was public.

It is important to note that in Medieval times the Catholic leaders: popes, bishops, priests, monks, nuns, etc, were not the celibate unmarried folks we know today. Most were married and had families, polygamy was not an uncommon practice in Medieval times and the wealthier a man was the more wives he could afford to buy. The Catholic church did not forbid leaders from marrying until into the 1600s, well after the Medieval period had ended.

Remember that wives were bought, not married in Medieval times, and a wife was nothing more than a house servant who slept with the master, and there are many books from Medieval times written for men on how to take care of their livestock, and these books contains lists of livestock which include: horses, dogs, cows, wives, pigs, and daughters.

Men could go to the local blacksmith and along with getting his horse shoes, he could also have his wife fitted with a chastity belt (cast iron panties) to prevent other men from using her and a bridle (some of which resembled bird cages bolted to her neck and forehead) which prevented her from talking. Leather makers sold collars and leashes, which wives were lead around by whenever they went out in public. This would have included queens and princesses as well, who most likely to have been kidnapped from enemy kings, and paraded through the streets as trophies, than publicly raped by the king, so that the entire town was a witness to the “marriage”.

Note that the word marriage meant: the act of stealing a woman’s virginity, or the act of claiming ownership by raping her. This was always done publicly, both to shame the female into never allowing another man in her bed, and to show other men, this one’s mine I’ll kill you if you touch her. Medieval people did not have the “sex is a sin to be done in secret” mindset that would develop in Victorian times. Marriage as we know it with the whole white wedding gown and church services, was invented by Queen Victoria herself, who was the first woman to ever wear a wedding gown or get married in a church, or have a wedding that did not involve the woman being dragged into the street and being publicly fucked senseless.

It was a sin to marry (rape) a nun, thus most girls from the 900s to the 1830s elected to become nuns as soon as they got their periods, in order to avoid being raped by their fathers, brothers, and local priests.

Study history. History is messed up. Study geography and current cultures - many current cultures are still living in the dark ages when it comes to incest. So don't going tossing out unresearched and uneducated statements like "illegal in every country in world." because it's not, far from it, and not even close to being illegal in even 10% of the world. That doesn't make it right of course, but it's still something you can't just turn a blind eye to either and say it's not happening when it is.

And legal or not, it happens every day here in the USA.

"So, when I don't want to use the 'proximity leads to incest' excuse/plot, what else can I use? What else is there except maybe: we didn't know, because we were separated at birth? My MC loves her brother, and I can't convince her otherwise. So trash her or is it possible to use her without being booted?"

As I said, I'm really not sure how I can help you out here. Proximity does lead to incest in real life, so not using it in you fiction will cause your readers to feel the story is less believable. How are you going to get around this? No clue.

Keep her? Trash her? Only you can decide that. How devoted to her are you?

If you are writing a pair of one shot characters you have never used before and will never use again, I'd say trash him, not her. Keep her as the main character, but turn him into the best friend of her brother. Create a third character and have this new character be her brother. That way she can still love the guy and he will no longer be her brother. No incest. Problem solved.

If you are dealing with long time repeating characters, whom you have written many times before and will be writing many times again, and incest is a result of a previous story line, than you have to seriously consider your motivations and where you want to take this story.

I think you need to ask yourself a few questions here, starting with:

“Why do I want to write an incest relationship if I am so repulsed by the concept of it?”

and

“Why is my main character madly in love with her brother? Is she ACTUALLY in love with him? Or is she in love with the idea of him”

You also need to consider something very important: love.

"What is love?"

and then:

"How is love different from lust?"

Next ask yourself:

"Could she live with him forever for eternity 100% devoted to his care and well being even if they never once had sex? Or is sex an integral factor in why she likes him?"

And than consider her reaction to this scenario:

"Is my main character REALLY totally in love with him 100% unconditionally and would do anything for this man even if he was castrated and turned into a sexless eunuch or is she just a lust filled little slut getting horny and would drop him as soon as his penis dropped off?"

Don't know the answer to this? Newsflash honey: If fucking him is front and center on her mind, she is in lust with him not in love with him, and you can have her getting a swift kick in the pants. Have him announce to her that he's decided to live a life without sex and is going to become a eunuch, and see how fast she runs to the next erect dick she comes across.

You must remember that love is not about sex and neither is incest. Your sister and brother team can be in an incestual relationship and never once have sex with each other. If she truly loves him than sex is the last thing on her mind.

......

"I can't write it like you do father/son adult/child, see power unbalance bothers me a lot. That's why I only can write incest when it's about siblings - best roughly the same age as well, but than it seems too familiar, too consensual."

One thing I am seeing in your question is you are classifying what I write as incest and consensual sex and I call it what it is: rape. You will never see me referring to “incest”, “incestuous relationships” or any other term using the word incest, in any of my stories, because incest is a term I simply do not use, for the very fact that it does imply the relationship was between two consenting people. Incest does in fact imply consent, because by true definition, incest is a sexual RELATIONSHIP between two related persons. There is no relationship in rape. A relationship implies love, hugs, kisses, cuddles, date nights, friendship, happiness, joy, desire, romance.

So you are reading my stories and thinking: “Huh, she writes about incest, cool.”

And yet, I am writing my stories and thinking: “I write about the horrors of surviving rape.”

See? Different perspective, results in different word usage, which dramatically changes the meaning and intent.

Why do I say this? Well, for one thing, if you are looking at my stories and saying “Hey, incest, cool beans!” than you are seriously fucked up and need a psychiatrist. Okay? Because there is no way this side of hell, for a normal person to look at what I write and see it as anything other than rape and only a sick twisted mind would read what I write and see it as not being rape.

Let me get one thing straight right here and right now: I don’t write about incest, I write about rape. It doesn’t matter to me if the rapists is related to his victim or not, a rapist is nothing but an inhuman monster and it takes more than matching DNA to make someone a family member.

No matter how much matching DNA a rapist and his victim have, if that monster is rapeing that child, he has no right to call himself family and therefor it is not incest, matching DNA or not, because rape is rape and prettying it up by giving it a watered down name does not change the fact that it is still rape. Rape is rape and don’t you ever try to call it anything other than what it is.

Let me repeat this for you, to make sure you really understand it: I DO NOT WRITE ABOUT INCEST; I WRITE ABOUT RAPE.

Okay? Moving on...

The adult/child thing creeps you out because it is creepy. I have Autism. I write what I know. I’ve been with a man 30 years older than me since I was 12. It creeps people out. I’ve never had a relationship with anyone else. I’ve never had any friends my own age. I have no point of reference by which I can write a relationship between 2 consenting adults because I have never been the consenting adult in a relationship. I only have first hand experience with one type of relationship: old man raping pre-teen girl every day, while no one cares, because money speaks louder than the cries of an Autistic child who was forced to be the sex slave of a Mormon high priest. That’s it. I have 27 years of experience in, shut up and let the high priest fuck you or else. I have no experience in what it is like to be loved by a man. I have no experience in what it is like to be treated like a wife. I have no experience in what it would be like to have a friend my own age.

And now here you are asking for my advice on how to write a relationship between two people of similar age? Honey, I can not help you there. I have no clue.

You admit that you can not write like I do (adult/child) and then after admitting that you know I write ONLY adult/child sexual relationships, you ask me to tell you how to write a non-adult/child sexual relationship? Honey, did it not occur to you that perhaps the reason I write ONLY adult/child sexual relationships because I ONLY have personal experience in adult/child relationships and therefore wouldn’t even know where to begin in writing a non-adult/child sexual relationship?

'The other issue of it being "with consent". There are books on the psychology of it and most turn into abusers, pedophiles or sexual deviants as a result of it, because children can't give consent even if they do give consent.'

and

"Incest is sexual abuse and in a lot of your stories it is like incest, child abuse, pedophilia and other sexual crimes are I don't know what to call it. These things are crimes and your main characters, the good guys, are the ones doing this stuff."

You seem to be referencing the relationship between the brothers Etoile de Azure Swanzen and Razzbury Swanzen, who were forced on each other at ages 3 and 9, by a pedophile uncle. I assume this since Etiole and Razz are the only incestuous good-guy main characters I've ever written. Keeping in mind the date of this event: 1667, in a country that was still living in the equivalent of early Medieval times.

I only write one incest couple, a pair of brothers, one gay, the other bisexual, both completely devoted to each other and each lost without the other. They love each other and are in love with each other, and they make love to each other. As with other “incest” relationships in the series, they were forced on each other as children, by adults in their lives. They ended up together for the simple fact that no one else could understand or identify with the trauma they has suffered as children. Their relationship is a quasi-Stockholm one, where they are together because of abuse and being abused together side by side for 10 years, they bonded together. After escaping their attackers they went their separate ways: one becoming a violent soldier who just wanted to kill something, anything, and then wiped out an innocent village slaughtering many women and children, was so shoken up by it that he lived the rest of his life “as” a woman; the other upon escaping, crumbled into a gibbering stupor, suffering night terrors and fearing everything and everyone so much that he locked himself in a room and refused to leave it. It wasn’t until the two of them were reunited as adults that either was able to live anything close to a normal life.

What happened to Etiole and Razz as children, is perhaps the single most horrific and disturbing event of the entire Twighlight Manor series. The thing which readers find even more horrific is the fact that these atrocities actually did happen to many young boys throughout Medieval times.

It was historically accurate for a king to take 2 small boys, dress one up as a girl, and force the other to rape the "female" one. This was a common form of "entertainment" in Medieval times.  Nobility thought it was hilarious that such small boys could be forced to have erections, and even more hilarious to see that they could be forced to have erections repeatably again and again and again, for endless hours of the day, day after day. Medical physicians would be present to analyze the boys reactions, including to measure the changes in their penises between each time. The king's court and physicians would continue to force one boy to rape the other boy until both boys passed out from exhaustion, at which point the king and his court would than take over raping the boys while they were unconscious. It was not uncommon for the boys to be as young as 3 years old, and it was not uncommon for the boys to literally be raped to death. Nor was it uncommon for the boys to be served for supper once they were dead. (Cannibalism was VERY common in Medieval times.) Raping boys in front of the entire royal court was a very common past time for Medieval nobility, especially in Eastern Europe. Fact is, doing this to small boys was said by physicians  to be "healthy", as it kept the adults from murdering peasants and it taught to boys to be men or so the physicians said. Medieval physicians wrote medical journals with instructions on how to best "cause a boy to fuck" (the term used for ejaculation), and detailed the best ways to cause both the boys to "make fuck at the same time".

As you might have noticed I don't write Medieval fiction that follows the romantic knight rescuing the princess in the tower. I write Medieval fiction that is based on actual documented facts. And I don't sugar coat them and toss cherries on top to make them digestible either. Medieval entertainment was horrendous and brutal and victims were often children and usually died.

In my stories the 2 boys, Etiole and Razz, were subjected to this very real Medieval past time and between their court sessions with the king they spent much of their days locked in a box to keep them from running away (as they often attempted to do. Yes it is horrible and creepy. Yes it is stomach turning. And yes, these things happened every day in real life.

My goal in writing this is not to entertain, but rather to show readers that life is hell, life sucks, children are treated like shit, adults are bastardly monsters, and the adults who stand by and do nothing while things things are happening are even worse than the adults doing it to the children. If you notice, I write my stories through the eyes of the children who live in absolute terror of the adults around them, praying that today they will not live through it so at last the pain will be over.

It's not the fact that I include these events that make the series difficult to find a publisher for, because many books have such events told in them. It is for the explicit, highly detailed, pornographic nature of describing what is happening to the boys step by step, descriptions drawn out and lasting 10 or 12 pages, that cause it to be "unpublishable" by mainstream press.

Had you read later stories in the series you would have known that as adults Etiole and Razz were unable to have healthy sexual relationships with anyone other than each other, and remained a gay, incestuous couple, throughout their lives, with Etiole never adopting the lifestyle of living as a man, but continuing into his adult life living as a transvestite, with few people other than Razz knowing that Etiole was not a woman.

Etiole and Razz were two small boys who were horrendously abused and lived in mortal terror of everyone around them. They grew into men who were unable to function in society and clung to each other out of fear of absolutely everyone else on the planet. Their lives were utterly destroyed by what had been done to them and they never recovered from it.

I can tell you've not read all my stories or you would know that Razzbury, the child who received the most incestuous sexual abuse as a child, went to prison as an adult for doing the same thing to his brother's son. It did mess with his head. It did turn him into a pedophile. It did tear their family apart. And in the stories which feature Razz in prison, the ones told from his point of view, we also see him a very baffled and confused man who is unable to understand why he has been sent to prison for a single offense, when his own uncle never was punished not even after many years of torturing several children - never punished that is until he was murdered by the 13 year old Etiole on the night that Etiole and Razz ran away from The Twighlight Manor never to return.

(Remembering too that Razz is not educated at all, never attended school, was not taught to read or write, has a very low IQ and likely could not learn anything if anyone ever did decide to try to teach him anything, part of the reason it was so easy for adults to sexually abuse him as a child was the fact that he was almost retarded, and keep in mind he suffered much more than just incest abuse as a child - he was well into his 40s before he ever had any social contact with anyone outside of his family, and much of his childhood was spent locked in closets waiting to be taken out long enough to be raped again than tossed back into the darkness once again to await the next rape. Razz was born with mental defects, horribly neglected, terribly abused, and in adulthood had no point of reference  to  base his own actions as good or bad, they being simply the only thing he knew.)

The confusion in Razz's mind being caused by the fact that as a child Razz had begged and pleaded for help and no one believed or listened to him, and those that did believe him, simply shrugged and said "Well, it happens, it's no big deal." Not only did no one help him, they acted like it was okay, they basically told him that he was the one who had something wrong with him for not enjoying what his uncle was doing to him. They conditioned him to believe, that not only was it right, but it was what an uncle was supposed to do to a child. Razz suffers from serious PTSD and once in prison has a total psychotic break down because for him being in prison is like being sent back to his childhood, being locked in a box waiting to be raped.

Neither Razz nor Etiole  were able to survive once separated from one another. When Razz goes to prison, Etiole turns to prostitution (becomes a cross-dressing male prostitute) and we see that Etiole was mentally scarred far worse from his childhood than was at first outwardly seen. Etiole eventually rapes a child than unable to live with the fact he has become the same monster he hated as a child, commits suicide.

And as to inspiration for this... It was not that I had any love for Medieval history, rather it was that I had a "crazy uncle" or so the family called him. He raped, molested, and sexually abused all of his nieces. His 11 brothers and sisters laughed it off and said "It's okay, he's just tickling you." No one did a damned thing to stop him, and the girls who tried to protest got beaten up by their own moms and dads for "Being bad and not obeying your elders." When a girl went to the police, she was looked in a closet-like room for 3 months, because "Only a demon possessed wretch would bring outsiders into the home."

Now you know why there's also an over use of children being sexually abused by a crazy uncle and than locked in an iron maiden by their parents if they protest.

What happens in the stories happens in Medieval times and thus readers overlook it as "just part of the times" and yet it is based on events that happened to me and my cousins in the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, and right on into 2013 and only stopped because the crazy uncle finally died.

Yes, incest is a predominate theme in my stories, but you got to remember, I have Autism and I write what I know. Nothing ever happens in one of my stories, unless it first happened in my life. When I went searching for help and got none, I went searching for others whom had lived through the nightmare I and my cousins had had to live through as children trapped with a pedophile uncle and that is how I came to discover that we were not alone and that in Medieval times what happened to us was nothing more than everyday practice. This is why l set the stories in Medieval times, as the atrocities of this kind of child abuse are more believable to the reader, set in Medieval times than set in today's era.

Did I mention I have PTSD and write what I know as way to empty my brain each night so I can sleep without nightmares and I don't write this with any amount of plotting or concern for what readers might think because I'm writing it as a way to make it from one day to the next not as a way to entertain a reader?

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